I want to say upfront that Steve and Joel were not our attys - they were the attys for our sons birthparents.
I have to say how impressed i was by the compassion from these men. It was Joel who met our son's birthparents at the hospital for the signing of the papers. It was 13 days after his birth. He treated the birthparents, individuals who by their choices but my son's life at risk, with complete respect and compassion. I had never heard their names before our son's birthfather told us he had looked into an atty and that they had chosen these gentlemen. I know my son's birthparents felt they made the right choice.
My son's birthparents told us that they wanted no contact - yet Joel told us that we should send pictures to their offices in case they changed their mind. It was clear to us as the AP's that he had his clients interests - not ours at heart.
After watching them at work - i have refered them to AP's and BP's alike. In indiana I dont think you can find two classier gentlemen to work with.
I also must say that I think Dee Dee's comment on the $40,000 adoption was just meant to be inflamatory. Indiana laws are quite clear on the cost of things. I can tell you exactly what Kirsh and Kirsch made for the adoption as I was the one that paid the bill for our adoption - it was $4,700. Most of the money went to pay for our birthmothers health bills and her allowable expenses.
I hope Dee Dee heals. As for Kirsh and Kirsh I will continue to recommend these attys.
I've recently read the reviews from DeeDee and Lynn. After DeeDee's first post I privately wrote her to offer grief counseling services (at no cost to her of course). A former client wrote her and recommended this to her as well. We have not heard from her. It appears that it may not be grief that is motivating her, which is disconcerting. Our agency has provided professional counseling services, including options counseling, to expectant women/couples and birth parents for well over a decade. K&K refer women and couples to us and we provide counseling and social services to the majority of women who are connected with prospective adoptive parents through their practice. Steve & Joel encourage all women to seek pre/post-placement counseling. They even have them review and sign a form titled "Why Counseling is Important." Women have the right to refuse counseling; it appears this is what DeeDee chose. Counseling is always available to every woman at no cost to her. I've personally been with Steve & Joel during hundreds of consent signings. I know the mantra well. They review all of their rights with them, clearly tell them they are under no obligation to proceed at this time and that they have the right to parent this child if they choose. They explain the permanence of adoption and Indiana law related to consents. They encourage them to "only sign" if they understand and are ready to proceed. We have walked out of many consent signings because the woman needed more time or chose not to proceed. That is their right and Steve and Joel wish them well. The women we have worked with over the years respect and admire Steve and Joel. Women often tell me that Steve & Joel treat them with respect and compassion. They laugh at how many times Steve and Joel remind them that "they are under no obligation to proceed." Because of this I find it hard to reconcile DeeDee's recounting of her story with who I know them to be as professionals, and as men.
We worked with Kirsh and Kirsh in adopting our two boys. Though adoption brings up a myriad of feelings for all involved, we feel like each experience is a story we are happy and proud to share with our children.
From the time we started the whole process, Steve Kirsh and all the staff were supportive without sugarcoating things, an approach we appreciated. When we reached a point where a birthmother asked for more information on us, Steve made it clear that this was not about saying the "right" thing in order to be chosen, but instead, about providing information so that the birthmother could make a decision that was a good fit for the her, the baby, and the adoptive parents.
We have an open adoption with both our boys, meaning that we are in open communication with their birthmoms and have occasional visits. This was not demanded by them but it was how our relationship evolved. While I don't personally know everything that these wonderful women went through on their path to adoption, I can say with confidence that both of them arrived at their decision on their own, and were grateful for the help of Kirsh and Kirsh during a difficult time in their lives. For each of them, making an adoption plan was not an easy choice but it was definitely a loving choice.
It's been just over five years since our first adoption. We still have such strong positive feelings for Kirsh and Kirsh and everyone there has a special place in our hearts. We highly recommend them to everyone we know who considers adoption, whether adoptive parents or birth parents.
We're adoptive parents of a beautiful baby boy. When we wanted to adopt a child, we looked for a well known agency we could to work with. After a few months of talking to people and making lots of phone calls and sending emails, we heard about Kirsh & Kirsh. All the adoptive parents we spoke to were happy about the way the people at K&K work. They don't only look out for our best interest, but also care about the birth mothers as well. That was a major difference compared to the offices we contacted before (where we sometimes got the awful feeling it was kind of a 'hunt for babies'). If a birthmom decided, before or after giving birth, to keep the baby, they didn't pressure her and told us it just wasn't ment to be. And for us that's the way it should be. That is the right of every birthmother.
Our adoption went really well. Both we as our birthmom were treated with respect and kindness. We all felt that adoption isn't just work for the people at Kirsh and Kirsh. They really care. And they still do even if it is a year later. We still are in contact with our birthmom, we all care for this babyboy and we all feel good about his adoption handled by Kirsh & Kirsh.
Deedee, I'm really sorry about the way you feel and we hope that the future will bring you all the best. But we wanted to respond to your email because we don't recognise the people of Kirsh & Kirsh you describe at all.
I have known Steven and Joel for 40 years. They are both honorable, honest, decent, caring, sincere men. Both are family minded, both are fair, reasonable, logical. I am sorry that Dee Dee had a negative experience but she is truly the needle in a haystack. Kirsh & Kirsh has facilitated adoptions and created hundreds and hundreds of happy families -- children and parents. Frankly, I cannot believe the things that Dee Dee has written. These are good men and their office is kind, compassionate place. The issue of adoption is complex for all parties involved, Steven and Joel consider all points of view as they take both birth mothers and adoptive parents through the process. I recommend them every chance that I get.
I understand the personal pain that Dee Dee is going through; I placed my birthson for adoption almost eleven years ago and it was the most difficult thing I have ever done. Like Dee Dee, I felt an unbearable heart-wrenching pain.
Unlike Dee Dee, I believe that my positive adoption experience was because of Kirsh & Kirsh. While pregnant I was never pressured into making any decisions, I was given access to counseling at no cost to me, my phone calls were always answered and my questions and concerns were always addressed honestly. As I went through the inital process it was clearly explained to me that once I signed the papers that it would be nearly impossible for me to change my decision so I needed to be very sure.
I think every birthmother vividly remembers the moment she signed the papers. Joel read every line in those documents to me, slowly and carefully. I remember him pausing and looking me in the eye, he asked me if I was absolutely sure this is what was best for my son and me.
I have known Steve and Joel Kirsh for many years now and they do not have an incompassionate or unethical bone between them. After I placed my son I was given support and treated with respect. The Kirsh's have processes in place to protect a birthparent even though they are not legally bound to do so. They counsel adoptive parents to be caring and respectful of birthfamilies. They travel to give lectures all over the state, at their own expense, to educate adoptive families and health care givers on the process of adoption.
Steve Kirsh gave me the greatest advice of my life; one day he told me that I was brilliant. Me, a young girl who made bad decisions and felt worthless. But, he said, no one would ever know it because of my spiked hair and combat boots. He reminded me that I chose adoption to give my child and myself a better opportunity to have a great life. I graduated from college and now have a successful career, wonderful husband and two beautiful children.
So I would say to Dee Dee that I know the pain that you feel but there are better ways to heal from this decision than lashing out and making slanderous comments that are just not true. I hope that you are able to find some counseling and a support system to help you through this difficult time.
I am a mother who had her child stolen by adoption. I say stolen because 2 days after I was coerced by my parents to sign relinquishment papers, the court (and Kirsh and Kirsh) wanted me to give my final consent. I sobbed hysterically and said NO, that I wanted my baby back, why did they have to take MY baby, etc. Steve Kirsh quickly told me that I couldn't do anything and that I wouldn't win because no birthmother has EVER gotten her baby back. The adoptive parents took her anyway, even though they knew this and had only known about my baby for 2 weeks; I for 9 months. I don't know how Steve Kirsh and these adoptive parents can lay their heads down to sleep at night--what he and they did was absolutely CRIMINAL! This firm also advised me not to look up anything online about adoption before I surrendered my baby because it's all "propaganda." How very sorry I am that I listened to them--I bought into the lies that I was doing the right thing for my baby so that Kirsh and Kirsh could earn $35-40,000 for her adoption. The adoptive parents get my beautiful and happy baby and the Kirshes get a fat paycheck and I get to be sobbing on my bathroom floor, contemplating suicide because the pain they have inflicted on me is UNBEARABLE! Oh yes, I almost forgot something. They suggest to their clients (adoptive parents) that they stop sending updates (photos/letters) after 5 years of age because they feel that the mothers and fathers of the children should "move on." As if any parent should or could EVER move on from their own child.
If you are a pregnant woman and thinking about adoption, we know you are dealing with many issues and need information to help you make the best choice for you and your child. Our pregnancy services are free and our counselors can help you think through all of your options including parenting your child yourself or placing your child with an adoptive family.
Such is the case of Mary Battle, my Natural/Birth Mother. She came in as a young African American mother, with her first born and Spence-Chapin promised her all kinds of empty things. They led Mary Battle to believe that her first born son was in good hands.
They placed Mary Battle's son in an abusive home that almost killed him. Eating human waste by force and having to drink water from the toilet bowl does not make for a healthy environment.
I ran away at 14 years of age and suffered greatly. I literally froze on the streets during the winter months and ate out of all kinds of garbage cans. I called Spence-Chapin as a homeless teen and they told me to go back to my adopted mother's home.
Mary Battle has no idea what happened to her son and Spence-Chapin made it possible that she will never know. Let us change that and protect every child from abuse.
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Reviews
They are the best!
I want to say upfront that Steve and Joel were not our attys - they were the attys for our sons birthparents.
I have to say how impressed i was by the compassion from these men. It was Joel who met our son's birthparents at the hospital for the signing of the papers. It was 13 days after his birth. He treated the birthparents, individuals who by their choices but my son's life at risk, with complete respect and compassion. I had never heard their names before our son's birthfather told us he had looked into an atty and that they had chosen these gentlemen. I know my son's birthparents felt they made the right choice.
My son's birthparents told us that they wanted no contact - yet Joel told us that we should send pictures to their offices in case they changed their mind. It was clear to us as the AP's that he had his clients interests - not ours at heart.
After watching them at work - i have refered them to AP's and BP's alike. In indiana I dont think you can find two classier gentlemen to work with.
I also must say that I think Dee Dee's comment on the $40,000 adoption was just meant to be inflamatory. Indiana laws are quite clear on the cost of things. I can tell you exactly what Kirsh and Kirsch made for the adoption as I was the one that paid the bill for our adoption - it was $4,700. Most of the money went to pay for our birthmothers health bills and her allowable expenses.
I hope Dee Dee heals. As for Kirsh and Kirsh I will continue to recommend these attys.
Respectful & Ethical
I've recently read the reviews from DeeDee and Lynn. After DeeDee's first post I privately wrote her to offer grief counseling services (at no cost to her of course). A former client wrote her and recommended this to her as well. We have not heard from her. It appears that it may not be grief that is motivating her, which is disconcerting. Our agency has provided professional counseling services, including options counseling, to expectant women/couples and birth parents for well over a decade. K&K refer women and couples to us and we provide counseling and social services to the majority of women who are connected with prospective adoptive parents through their practice. Steve & Joel encourage all women to seek pre/post-placement counseling. They even have them review and sign a form titled "Why Counseling is Important." Women have the right to refuse counseling; it appears this is what DeeDee chose. Counseling is always available to every woman at no cost to her. I've personally been with Steve & Joel during hundreds of consent signings. I know the mantra well. They review all of their rights with them, clearly tell them they are under no obligation to proceed at this time and that they have the right to parent this child if they choose. They explain the permanence of adoption and Indiana law related to consents. They encourage them to "only sign" if they understand and are ready to proceed. We have walked out of many consent signings because the woman needed more time or chose not to proceed. That is their right and Steve and Joel wish them well. The women we have worked with over the years respect and admire Steve and Joel. Women often tell me that Steve & Joel treat them with respect and compassion. They laugh at how many times Steve and Joel remind them that "they are under no obligation to proceed." Because of this I find it hard to reconcile DeeDee's recounting of her story with who I know them to be as professionals, and as men.
Great experience with Kirsh and Kirsh
We worked with Kirsh and Kirsh in adopting our two boys. Though adoption brings up a myriad of feelings for all involved, we feel like each experience is a story we are happy and proud to share with our children.
From the time we started the whole process, Steve Kirsh and all the staff were supportive without sugarcoating things, an approach we appreciated. When we reached a point where a birthmother asked for more information on us, Steve made it clear that this was not about saying the "right" thing in order to be chosen, but instead, about providing information so that the birthmother could make a decision that was a good fit for the her, the baby, and the adoptive parents.
We have an open adoption with both our boys, meaning that we are in open communication with their birthmoms and have occasional visits. This was not demanded by them but it was how our relationship evolved. While I don't personally know everything that these wonderful women went through on their path to adoption, I can say with confidence that both of them arrived at their decision on their own, and were grateful for the help of Kirsh and Kirsh during a difficult time in their lives. For each of them, making an adoption plan was not an easy choice but it was definitely a loving choice.
It's been just over five years since our first adoption. We still have such strong positive feelings for Kirsh and Kirsh and everyone there has a special place in our hearts. We highly recommend them to everyone we know who considers adoption, whether adoptive parents or birth parents.
Kirsh& Kirsh
We're adoptive parents of a beautiful baby boy. When we wanted to adopt a child, we looked for a well known agency we could to work with. After a few months of talking to people and making lots of phone calls and sending emails, we heard about Kirsh & Kirsh. All the adoptive parents we spoke to were happy about the way the people at K&K work. They don't only look out for our best interest, but also care about the birth mothers as well. That was a major difference compared to the offices we contacted before (where we sometimes got the awful feeling it was kind of a 'hunt for babies'). If a birthmom decided, before or after giving birth, to keep the baby, they didn't pressure her and told us it just wasn't ment to be. And for us that's the way it should be. That is the right of every birthmother.
Our adoption went really well. Both we as our birthmom were treated with respect and kindness. We all felt that adoption isn't just work for the people at Kirsh and Kirsh. They really care. And they still do even if it is a year later. We still are in contact with our birthmom, we all care for this babyboy and we all feel good about his adoption handled by Kirsh & Kirsh.
Deedee, I'm really sorry about the way you feel and we hope that the future will bring you all the best. But we wanted to respond to your email because we don't recognise the people of Kirsh & Kirsh you describe at all.
Kirsh & Kirsh
I have known Steven and Joel for 40 years. They are both honorable, honest, decent, caring, sincere men. Both are family minded, both are fair, reasonable, logical. I am sorry that Dee Dee had a negative experience but she is truly the needle in a haystack. Kirsh & Kirsh has facilitated adoptions and created hundreds and hundreds of happy families -- children and parents. Frankly, I cannot believe the things that Dee Dee has written. These are good men and their office is kind, compassionate place. The issue of adoption is complex for all parties involved, Steven and Joel consider all points of view as they take both birth mothers and adoptive parents through the process. I recommend them every chance that I get.
Working with Kirsh & Kirsh
I understand the personal pain that Dee Dee is going through; I placed my birthson for adoption almost eleven years ago and it was the most difficult thing I have ever done. Like Dee Dee, I felt an unbearable heart-wrenching pain.
Unlike Dee Dee, I believe that my positive adoption experience was because of Kirsh & Kirsh. While pregnant I was never pressured into making any decisions, I was given access to counseling at no cost to me, my phone calls were always answered and my questions and concerns were always addressed honestly. As I went through the inital process it was clearly explained to me that once I signed the papers that it would be nearly impossible for me to change my decision so I needed to be very sure.
I think every birthmother vividly remembers the moment she signed the papers. Joel read every line in those documents to me, slowly and carefully. I remember him pausing and looking me in the eye, he asked me if I was absolutely sure this is what was best for my son and me.
I have known Steve and Joel Kirsh for many years now and they do not have an incompassionate or unethical bone between them. After I placed my son I was given support and treated with respect. The Kirsh's have processes in place to protect a birthparent even though they are not legally bound to do so. They counsel adoptive parents to be caring and respectful of birthfamilies. They travel to give lectures all over the state, at their own expense, to educate adoptive families and health care givers on the process of adoption.
Steve Kirsh gave me the greatest advice of my life; one day he told me that I was brilliant. Me, a young girl who made bad decisions and felt worthless. But, he said, no one would ever know it because of my spiked hair and combat boots. He reminded me that I chose adoption to give my child and myself a better opportunity to have a great life. I graduated from college and now have a successful career, wonderful husband and two beautiful children.
So I would say to Dee Dee that I know the pain that you feel but there are better ways to heal from this decision than lashing out and making slanderous comments that are just not true. I hope that you are able to find some counseling and a support system to help you through this difficult time.
Evil, immoral, and criminal!
I am a mother who had her child stolen by adoption. I say stolen because 2 days after I was coerced by my parents to sign relinquishment papers, the court (and Kirsh and Kirsh) wanted me to give my final consent. I sobbed hysterically and said NO, that I wanted my baby back, why did they have to take MY baby, etc. Steve Kirsh quickly told me that I couldn't do anything and that I wouldn't win because no birthmother has EVER gotten her baby back. The adoptive parents took her anyway, even though they knew this and had only known about my baby for 2 weeks; I for 9 months. I don't know how Steve Kirsh and these adoptive parents can lay their heads down to sleep at night--what he and they did was absolutely CRIMINAL! This firm also advised me not to look up anything online about adoption before I surrendered my baby because it's all "propaganda." How very sorry I am that I listened to them--I bought into the lies that I was doing the right thing for my baby so that Kirsh and Kirsh could earn $35-40,000 for her adoption. The adoptive parents get my beautiful and happy baby and the Kirshes get a fat paycheck and I get to be sobbing on my bathroom floor, contemplating suicide because the pain they have inflicted on me is UNBEARABLE! Oh yes, I almost forgot something. They suggest to their clients (adoptive parents) that they stop sending updates (photos/letters) after 5 years of age because they feel that the mothers and fathers of the children should "move on." As if any parent should or could EVER move on from their own child.
Spence-Chapin is Wrong...Not good for children
If you are a pregnant woman and thinking about adoption, we know you are dealing with many issues and need information to help you make the best choice for you and your child. Our pregnancy services are free and our counselors can help you think through all of your options including parenting your child yourself or placing your child with an adoptive family.
Such is the case of Mary Battle, my Natural/Birth Mother. She came in as a young African American mother, with her first born and Spence-Chapin promised her all kinds of empty things. They led Mary Battle to believe that her first born son was in good hands.
They placed Mary Battle's son in an abusive home that almost killed him. Eating human waste by force and having to drink water from the toilet bowl does not make for a healthy environment.
I ran away at 14 years of age and suffered greatly. I literally froze on the streets during the winter months and ate out of all kinds of garbage cans. I called Spence-Chapin as a homeless teen and they told me to go back to my adopted mother's home.
Mary Battle has no idea what happened to her son and Spence-Chapin made it possible that she will never know. Let us change that and protect every child from abuse.